Most Overrated Cards in Commander | The Command Zone #244 | Magic: the Gathering Commander EDH

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Show Notes:

DJ brings his own new perspective to an old debate: What are the most overrated cards in Commander? Buckle up, because Josh does not necessarily agree with all of DJ’s list. Which cards cause the most contention? Tune in and find out!

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What we talked about on THE END STEP:

Skyward by Brandon Sanderson:
https://brandonsanderson.com/books/skyward/skyward/

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Comments

Jacques Lapierre says:

mimic vat overrated JLK omg it more like you build your deck wrong
because that card is so good it sure that if you put that in your blue deck it wont be good

dalmacietis says:

Damn, now the price of Chromatic Lantern will never recover 😀

Miztickow says:

DJ, you forgot to mention Skullwinder when talking about Eternal Witness.

Alexander Zoukas says:

I like Jumbo but I felt like he just had to argue every point and a lot of times he seems like he is fighting a uphill battle.

Simon Westwood says:

Avenger of zendikar. I’ve never seen that card do more than hit someone for 6

Jake Puckett says:

I love you Jumbo, but I’m definitely with Josh on a lot of these!

RELIQUARY TOWER is fantastic in nearly every blue deck, and in most mono-colored decks. I especially like it in my Talrand deck! If I have 20 cards (easy in Talrand), it is VERY VERY difficult for anybody to do anything I don’t want to happen- and with the high number of situational counters/instants (Swan Song, Misdirection, Twincast, Unwind, etc), plus the discard synergies with Force of Will & Foil, having as many cards as possible is amazing. I have literally had 3 Consecrated Sphinx’s on Turn 5 (Extraplanar Lens exiling Snow-Covered Island on T3, Talrand & couple cantrips T4, High Tide + Polymorph + Stolen Identity [x2 after swinging] on T5! On T6 I had drawn 19 cards, and was able to Transmute Tolaria West to get Reliquary Tower- I could pass the turn with 9 open mana & 19+ cards, leaving me able to keep my Sphinx’s and prevent anything bad from resolving. Polymorph isn’t as unlikely to hit the Sphinx as you would think, since the only other creatures are Jin-Gitaxias, Blightsteel Colossus, Docent of Perfection, & Ulamog the Infinite Gyre). 40+ cards in mono-blue counters-tribal? Good luck against that! In that deck, if I don’t need a Pact of Negation, I will transmute for Reliquary 90% of the time. Reliquary Tower is literally the only reason I also include Expedition Map, and Thought Vessel is one of only 3 things I target with Fabricate (the other 2 are Proteus Staff & Extraplanar Lens). Even in other 2-color decks, if they have decent card draw, I have greatly benefited from Reliquary Tower- being able to hang on to your normal game plan PLUS different kinds of spot removal, ramp, card draw, and boardwipes is a HUGE advantage. Sorry Jumbo, but you can’t say flexibility is a huge value in our format when discussing Putrefy, then turn around and say having 20 cards isn’t drastically better than having 7.

FORCE OF WILL: seriously? Overrated? what about in mono-blue? with all the card draw? Have you friggin PLAYED with that card?? It is insanely good, and even just the threat of people knowing it is in your deck along with Pact/Foil/etc means most people will think twice before attempting to mess with your gameplan, even when you are tapped out. I LOOOOVE my Force of Will! Best $75 card I’ve ever bought! I’m definitely with Josh on this one.

I think you both have underrated CHROMATIC LANTERN though.. I would likely still put it in most non-green 3+ color decks with any sort of high-devotional-costed cards, and it definitely has helped me! In Ghave, a lot of the combo cards have high devotional costs (Juniper Order Ranger, Sigil Captain, Elesh Norn, etc), but Chromatic Lantern is not necessary because of Earthcraft, Cryptolith Rite, Kodama’s Reach, Cultivate, Nature’s Lore, Skyshroud Claim, etc. I will say, though, that I love my Chromatic Lantern if I see a Blood Moon!!!

I agree with most of the other cards- I run Eternal Witness only if I have a creature/blink/graveyard theme, and the same goes for Mulldrifter. OG Duals are extremely overrated in our format- but Gaea’s Cradle is busted good.

josh thesing says:

What non-competitive player is playing Force of will? And I bet a deck that plays force of will is also running counterspell… and when talking about brainstorm all i gotta point at is the part that says ‘instant’, none of your comparisons were even instants. and you suggest to replace putrify ($0.20) with Assassin’s Trophy ($13)? xD I used to watch these podcast when they came out but the quality has gone down IMHO.

Scott Snow says:

I disagree with brainstorm. It is instant speed meaning you can leave up mana if you need to/ wait for more information to know which cards to put back. I would say out of filtering, ponder is best as you see three and then can see a fourth of one of the three are good. Preordain is worse than both ponder and brainstorm. I would take brainstorm though. I don’t think its overrated.

Daves GoldenDuck says:

Soul Ring is the most overrated card. I have removed it from my Thraxamunder deck

Murrdurrurr says:

mucho respect to Josh for standing up for Force of Will

Justin Hurst says:

Corner case alert: I love brainstorm in a wheels deck, if I have two wheels in hand I will use it and scroll rack to put one on top of my library so when I wheel I can draw it and wheel again.

Zack Myers says:

Love Command Zone and DJ both, but this was a hard episode to get through and watch. Just lots of arguing back and forth. I think this really soured the episode, at least for me. My two cents.

f dg says:

I play minds eye in my mono u Karmideck. I think it is good, because I can draw two cards for each opponent and I have a lot of ramp, Do you think that it is bad?

erubin100 says:

EWit is powerful because it’s a green creature. Not only does its creature status make it abusable, but its color identity fits it into any deck that can tutor for a creature. It’s not as good as Regrowth in it’s 1-turn usage, but it’s versatility is what makes it a staple.

Aaron Garcia says:

No card is good essentially. The efficacy is found in the relation of one card to another. This is why synergy is the only thing to strive for.

Dennis de gooijer says:

I think the most overrated cards are Phyrexian Arena and Solemn Simulacrum. Arena is good and I would still play it in some decks, but is very slow. Simulacrum on the other hand is only playable-ish in Red or White decks without Green. In non-Green decks I think nearly every mana rock is better and in non-Black decks, the card draw often isn’t very relevant in my experience. I’ve cut it out of all of my decks.

This is my opinion on your ratings on all of the cards, written at the time they talk about them…. (TLDR: DJ is a fucking moron)

Eternal Witness: Are you serious? Do you even play Commander? How can I take you serious after this? This card should be in every green deck. Tutors, sacrifice, blocking?
Putrefy: Sure, I agree, I cut it from nearly all my BG decks too. It’s better than Status // Statue though, just because of the mana.
Brainstorm: I rarely see it in Commander anyway, only in decks who need a cheap draw trigger or a cheap spell cast or even in decks that play with the top of the deck.
Mind’s Eye: Agree, although I rarely see that as well.
Yavimaya Elder: Agree, doesn’t ramp.
Original Duals: Sorta agree, they are too expensive for the upside. But it makes your deck so much smoother, since you can run all the Fetches, Duals and Shocks.
Reliquary Tower: Not overrated at all. It has a card effect on a land, so no real cost for running this effect. Probably should be in most EDH decks. If it sometimes draws you a card, on a land, it’s good.
Progenitor Mimic: Never ever seen this card(in a deck), so it can’t really be overrated right?
Chromatic Lantern: Sure, it’s really only good in 4/5 color decks and even then it’s not something to write home about.
Mimic Vat: A typical beginner card, really enjoyable, but not too great, so I agree. Oh DJ….
Force of Will: DJ shut your face. You don’t seem to play Commander. FoW is the best counterspell in the game. Better than Counterspell, better than Pact, better than Mystic Confluence. It’s free….

DJ has no fucking idea what he is talking about, Jesus Christ. This dude annoys the fuck out of me nearly every episode. He says so much stupid shit. He has either the worst or even no arguments with every point he tries to make. I wasn’t sad when Jimmy was gone, but this manbaby makes me want Jimmy back, and that says a lot. He says Mimic Vat is not overrated and Eternal Witness/Reliquary Tower is??? FoW??? The best counterspell in Magic, that makes you exile a card in the best card drawing color in Magic, is not a downside, since it causes FoW to be free. Please get this man of the show. It’s very frustrating to see this show deteriorate so fast.

CowCo says:

mimic vat is good in ayli right?

ChinesNoodle D says:

And brainstorm is a instant. Compared to sorcery

SadwichPunch2100 says:

The point I would make to DJ about Reliquary Tower is this. When you have 20-30 cards in hand, yes you can craft a very good seven for that time. However, discarding over 10% of your deck is actively hurting you when you aren’t a graveyard synergistic deck. I agree that Reliquary Tower in a deck that isn’t designed to draw a ton of cards is overrated. However in a deck designed to constantly be drawing cards Reliquary Tower is great.

Michael Targos says:

I think that chromatic lantern is great in any 2 color and up deck

Alex Smallridge says:

I feel like you’re undervaluing cards that are more budget. Putrefy is a good budget option for expensive removal. And chromatic lantern is a good option if you don’t have the money for an expensive mana base.
Also most of your ratings seem based on win percentage other than just fun. EDH is a big singleton format where we can play whatever we enjoy. Things like tokens and drawing a ton of cards is just a fun thing to do and EDH lets you do it.

Butter God says:

I’ve seen Brainstorm in a powerful Thousand Year Storm Deck I was against and got murdered by 7 shocks at once.

Jamie May says:

It’s not a bad theoretical argument. You are ommitting real pragmatism though. I maintain 32 commander decks, one for each colour combo. When you talk about upgrading putrefy to assassin’s trophy that’s 8 upgrades I have to make at $15 ea = $120 to marginally upgrade one slot in 8 decks.

Jose Vicentelo Yañez says:

I will say, i dont hate Dj the dude is actually cool but sometimes i think he can carry his ideas beyond the line of objective truth.

Jacques Lapierre says:

I was like yavimaya is aswome in borborygmos and then DJ bring him up I love that guy

Marcello Salis says:

I agree with almost everything, except Eternal Witness. As a creature, you can recur it, blink it, get value out of it in a million ways, at the very least you can chump-block against an aggressive deck.

Phillip Bouille says:

Force of Will also has that “bluff” aspect. Being tapped out makes your opponents more confident in making big plays which you can negate.

Alvaro Carrero says:

When do we get to see DJ on a Game Knights? =)

Silverslipstream says:

you know, listening to a lot of josh’s reasoning really paints a picture of how he plays, and it reminds me of how players see colors differently. Josh’s opinions, and his ‘blue’ playstyle are vastly different from my perspective of blue. i’m not trying to sound antagonistic, but the only word i can think of is…(not spoiled… not entitled…) privilaged(?) he talks about having so many cards in hand and being able to make sure his win isn’t interrupted, about how it ‘increases your odds’ and I’m sitting here thinking “wow I wish I could guarantee everything went my way in a game of commander like it does for you josh,”
going back to what I said about color, this is a distinctly ‘blue’ thing I noticed. I hate and love blue at the same time for very different reasons. for instance counter spells are annoying, I will rarely ever use one, I’d rather have a backup plan then be the guy that polices everything so only I get to play magic (i understand it is a “legitimate strategy” and whatever wins works), it makes it seem like he *can’t* win without that force of will or the extra 10 cards he saved with reliquary tower. that’s why I used the word privilaged, his reasoning sounds like the same reasoning people use for chromatic lantern, having to think less because you have luxury. when they talk about crafting the perfect 7, it is almost exactly what they talk about when leaving mana open. it feels like its a crutch, like a great player wouldn’t need counterspells or 35 cards in order to win. having an answer to everything takes careful planning, but that leaves out my favorite part of blue, the cunning, the resourcefulness, working with bad luck and turning it around.
if feels like comparing izzet with azorius, or esper and gryxis honestly

like I said, i’m not trying to start anything, I enjoy the content and agree with a lot of thoughts here. I just noticed some biases and preferences and thought i’d put in my 2 cents.

MindlessOne says:

Its rare getting Mimic Vat to work cause players start to use Exile effects over destroy. In a way it force opponents to use up their exile effect spells sooner. Great distraction card, for multiple reasons.

Jacques Lapierre says:

you kown in what kind of deck force of will is great the one that draw a lot of card and have a reliquary tower

Byron Evans says:

Dude DJ is changing the world! Looks like Josh isn’t used to having someone disagree with him and make a really solid argument.

erubin100 says:

Force of Will is not overrated. It is literally THE most powerful counterspell in magic because its free. It’s only one of two counterspells that you don’t have to hold mana for (the other is Pact of Negation, but that one isn’t as strong because you do have to pay 5 mana for it later).

Tucker Danyluk says:

starts at 3:15

DecrepitFlunky says:

>when dj doesnt understand the difference between 7 and 30 cards

Fiz Fiz says:

I’m newer to edh
Why do you want to have shuffle effects with brainstorm.

Leo Blum says:

is to long

Kim Bach says:

Hate for putrefy? Literallly all the cards you said that replaced it, it was cards that came out this year.

Leonidas Spartan says:

How dare you!? Yavimaya Elder is bae

V3NCH3l2 Gaming says:

With your comments on mimic vat, while sometimes it might not be used after being played, the fact you played it, and it forced the gameplay away from creatures makes it very valuable in terms of deterrence. Its a lot like a nevs disk. Everyone sees it, groans, then has to play cards to avoid the disk until they try to force your hand. What might have ended up with someone going off early gets stuffed allowing everyone else a slight reprieve to prepare.

If mimic vat doesnt get used to exile a creature, its value is the psychological effect. I want to play this creature because it’s awesome and will help me win, but if it gets removed then mimicked, then i helped THEM win so i cant play this until we get rid of mimic vat……

I think many cards are used more in this manner than as a win condition.

Its like nukes. Hey, dont mess with me or i will use this thing. (Even tho it might be very bad for me too)

mattmitchell45 says:

There has been like a string of 2-3 what not to do episodes. Useful, but would love some new positive concepts. I can barely get a few EDH games together a year and focus on overplay issues seems very limited.

Aleksander Soczewka says:

“You have to abuse the body” ~DJ The Command Zone #244

jon callow says:

bj keep josh on the back foot its good to hear a debate like force of will.

Jake Dalay says:

I think a stats analysis could solve the Force of Will inclusion effect on win %, compare its win % with inclusion vs the win % of any deck running the same number of counterspells not including Force of Will. Looking forward to a second set of stats episodes (please, by all means, make more stats episodes).

Adam Mostafa says:

i have a friend who belives in the tower too much

we were in a commander game and all 4 of us had it in our decks, then one of my casual friends ulted with jace and had us draw 20 cards. most of us drew the tower then put it on to keep them, then i started bouncing lands with the tidespout tyrant, after i made one of my friends (in jund with graveyard recursion) lose the hand, he conceded. That just made me laugh how much he cared about the cards

Derek Hammersley says:

There’s someone in my playgroup that does the fingernail tapping thing, drives me nuts!

MageKirby says:

Okay, after watching the whole thing I agree with the cards. But DJ’s opinions are so extreme. lol

SkyShepherd says:

Not gonna sugarcoat it, I was pretty uncomfortable with the dialogue about reliquary tower. The whole argument felt so insignificant and they just kept staying on it for such a long time.

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